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Talk:Sovereign class/archive
See talk:Sovereign class/archive for older discussions. Maximum speed? The article states that the maximum speed of the Sovereign-class is Warp Factor 9.7 but it is supposed to be the fastest class of Starfleet vessel save the Prometheus-class and the Intrepid-class has a maximum speed of Warp 9.975. Was the scale changed again between 2371 and 2372 or is the figure of 9.7 another Star Trek inconsistency?--Scimitar 23:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) : I think its maximum cruising speed until fuel exhaustion is warp 9.7, just like warp 9.2 was for the Galaxy Class. I think its a safe bet to say that the Sovereign's actual maximum speed would be classified. --Modelshipbuilder :: I think it's top speed is greater than that of the Intrepid class. ::: There is absolutely no canon information on how fast the Sovereign class is, other than it can definitely top warp 8, which we'd be surprised if it couldn't anyway. :::: There's no canon information other than that the ship can get to Warp 8. Nowhere in canon is it stated that the Sovereign class is the fastest in the fleet. Comparisons with the Intrepid class are unhelpful, because the conditions under which Voyager is supposedly able to reach warp 9.975 are never stated, and the ship struggles to maintain warp 9.75 for 12 hours in "The Swarm". People do get very protective of the Sovereign class, but claiming that it has to be the best at everything gets rather counter-productive and a little fan-boyish ::::: Memory Beta states that its top speed is Warp 9.99. -- TheThirdWitness 22:46, 25 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::Memory Beta also specializes in non-canon sources, while we specialize in canon ones. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:50, 25 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::: Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. --TheThirdWitness 17:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC) Sickbay location A point about the Sovereign class sickbay: In First Contact Beverly and the others escape from Sickbay on a Borg seiged Deck 16. However in the Sovereign class reverence in Memory Alpha it states that Sickbay is on Deck 7... Is it a seperate secondary sickbay? Was there a refit between First Contact and Nemesis? Or was this just a mistake? :This article mentions Sickbay's location as Deck 7. There is another article which seems to contradict this. I have seen other sources listing Main Sickbay on Deck 8 as well. Anyone have any ideas? ::It was mentioned in "First Contact" that there was a sickbay on Deck 16. Perhaps in "Nemesis", the one on Deck 7 or 8 was mentioned? Ottens 10:14, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::The Galaxy class had several sickbay facilities throughout the ship. The Sovereign, being a battleship, would also have many sickbays throughout the ship. Tiberius 02:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC) ::::The problem with that is it is speculation. While TNG did establish multiple sickbays on Galaxy class starships, this was never established in canon for the Sovereign class. We have only seen one sickbay, IIRC, on the Sovereign class. There may be more, but we have never heard of them. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC) :::But reasonable speculation. In We saw bev evacuating a sickbay. The only need for her to evacuate a sickbay is if it was in the engineering hull. Also, the Enterprise D Blueprints (probably not canonical, but done by staff members on the show) shows medical facilities scattered throughout the ship. There's also the common sense of having sickbay facilities near areas such as main engineering where people are likely to get hurt by conduits exploding etc. This, combined with the sources that say there are sickbays on several different decks in a Soverign vessel, seem to indicate to me beyond doubt that there are several sickbays on board, just as there were in the galaxy. Tiberius 02:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC) ::::It does not matter if the speculation is reasonable, it is still speculation. If you want to make a background note with your speculation, that might be acceptable, but otherwise it cannot go in the article. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC) :::I'll do that, add it as a background note. :) Tiberius 08:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC) ::::: We have seen two different Sickbay facilities, the one in Nemesis, and the one in First Contact and Insurection. The one in Nemesis might not have been in the movie itself, but rather in the extras. Can't remember. The extras were edited for time, not content so I assume they can be considered canon, or very close to canon. -- , not a member, just an observer. ::::::The Sovereign class is able to seperate the saucer from the drive section, so there would be at least two of everything on the ship. Plus, if you are building a ship to "boldly go where no man has gone before," wouldn't you put extras and redundancies in your ship? Re-used Voyager sets? I spotted the officer's quarters as a redressed Voyager briefing room (you can see the wall panels in the bathtub scene), and Sickbay is just Voyager's sickbay with rearranged furniture and different-coloured lighting, but are there others? Weapon Systems & Refit When I said I reverted the article due to speculation, I meant stating it had undergone a refit was speculatory. However, the apparent change in number of armaments can be presented as background info. --From Andoria with Love 05:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC) :It should be fairly obvious that the Sovereign has undergone a refit. The number of changes to the ship would have required substansial time in drydock. We know that 4 more phaser arrays as well as 4 more torpedo launchers got added to the ship by the time of Nemesis. The warp engine placement has changed. The hump on the spine of the ship also got enlarged. This can easily be deduced purely from visual references. Alyeska 05:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC) :I'm waiting for you to show up Shran. The physical model of the Sovereign class only has 12 phaser arrays as of Insurrection. By the time of Nemesis it has 16. As of Insurrection it has 4 photon torpedo launchers and 1 quantum. As of Nemesis its 8 and 1. What proof are you requiring of me to let me post the material? Alyeska 06:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC) My apologies on the delay. As I said, it may have undergone a refit, it may not have. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't specified on-screen and is therefore only speculation. However, you may add the details you observed as background information, stating that it could have possibly been the result of a refit. --From Andoria with Love 06:28, 27 January 2006 (UTC) :That it wasn't stated onscreen is irrelevent. There are very clear observed changes between Nemesis and Insurrection. The ship underwent some sort of refit in this period. You don't assume that the producers retconned the Sovereign without just cause or explination with an easier and far more logical explination is available. :This is a simple side viewing of the Enterprise-E. You can see the significant structural changes that have occured from Insurrection to Nemesis. Alyeska 06:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC) :The weapon counts from all the other ships have been derived specificaly from onscreen counting of the weapons. It is very clear that the Enterprise has had a change in weapons from Insurrection to Nemesis. It astounds me that some people are fighting the issue and intentionaly posting numbers that aren't correct for either Insurrection or Nemesis. The Sovereign never had 14 phaser arrays. It had 12, now has 16. Alyeska 06:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC) Actually, that it wasn't specified on-screen is relevant -- it's what qualifies or disqualifies info a place in the main part of the article. Since it wasn't specified -- and since it's only an observation based apparently on a model -- it only qualifies as background info. (Similar conversations have been held at Talk:Oberth class and Talk:Phase cannon). Hope this helps clear any confusion on this matter. --From Andoria with Love 06:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC) :Then how come visualy determined weapon counts are in just about every other ship page eh? BTW, the information was observed from the model which is a source that comes from onscreen. Its a canon source. If you consider that background info, then dialogue is just the same. Calling the examination of the physical model background info is absurd. The ship appeared onscreen, therefore what we can glean from it is perfectly valid. Alyeska 06:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC) Hmm... that's actually a good question. Actually, I think most of the armament listings on the other pages were specified on-screen. However, you may be right with some of those cases. Nonetheless, I do not pretend to be an expert in starship specifications, so I guess you can go ahead and add it. Sorry for any confusion and what-not. --From Andoria with Love 06:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC) ::(edit conflict) -- i believe that we can say for sure that something happened in those five years, the ship does have different/additional visible ports and changes to its structure. it would be speculation to state why they had changed or what the unaddressed items and details meant, because it wasn't explicitly stated in some cases, although if the amount of phaser arays increased, we can reliably say some were added, or possibly uncovered -- they are easy to visually account. ::I think that if more any more variables in the sidebar are being changed or discussed, we'd like to see a paragraph in the article explaining the phaser and torpedo setup of the Sovereign. For example, a pragraph listing the visually accounted for weapons ports and ports that were changed/added in the refit. That would be a good way to explain the variations in the number. Since the class has now included two modifications, maybe this, as the article focused on the Sovereign-class itself, and not the Enterprise specifically, should just state "12-16 phaser arrays" and have an extended description in a later paragraph where you can and explain where all the new phaser arrays are, and how they changed between films. ::I'd just like to see the most complete and descriptive form of this information added, maybe not as "proof" but instead just to completely explain the topic. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 06:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC) Sounds good to me. Now, see, why couldn't I say that? (Probably the late hour... sorry. :/) --From Andoria with Love 06:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC) :12-16 would indicate 12 through 16. Better to indicate 12 or 16. Alyeska 06:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC) : FYI. The weapon counts on the Akira, Nebula, Galaxy, Prometheus, and Defiant have all been derived from visual inspection of the models or observations form directly onscreen. In dialogue the Galaxy class was stated by Worf (Cononundrum episode) to have 10 phaser arrays. Akira was listed at 15 torpedo launchers from the creator, but that can be visualy confirmed. All other weapons numbers are purely counted. The Nebula, Prometheus, and Defiant figures are pure observation and no dialogue or backstage info at all.Alyeska 06:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC) ::: The weapon figures given for the Sovereign are not correct. The ship has 16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo tubes as of Nemesis. I have seen the accual CG model used in the movie that Digital Domain built, and the weapons can be physicly counted, and further more the AA/DST replica of the ship, which was made directly from the same CG model from the movie also features 16 phaser arrays and 10 launchers. Richard Long has also used the same CG model which was provided to him by Digital Domain to master a new 40 inch long fiberglass model of the ship, which featues 16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo tubes. John Eaves also has varified that the Nemesis CG model features 16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo launchers. There for the armament of the ship is known and is beyond debate. I have updated these figures so they are now cannon.Modelshipbuilder ::::And I'm calling you on your count...I have a scan of the Eaves layouts with the notes on added weapons and the TOTAL count is as follows: ::::Phaser arrays- Dorsal Saucer/1 large and 4 small (total 5), Ventral Saucer/ 2 medium and 2 small (total 4), Ventral Stardrive/1 (total 1) and Nacelle Pylons/ 1 dorsal and 1 ventral each (total 4) TOTAL PHASER ARRAYS: 14 ::::Torpedo Tubes- Dorsal Saucer/2 single mount forward (1 at Deck 3, 1 near the bow) and 1 double mount aft (at the aft end of the largest "terrace" (total 4), Ventral Saucer/1 "turret" tube forward (total 1), Dorsal Stardrive, 1 aft facing single tube above 2ndary shuttlebay (total 1), Ventral Stardrive/ 1 twin mount forward at "bottom" of hull, 1 twin mount aft at bottom of hull, 1 single mount under 2ndary suttlebay (total 5) ::::TOTAL TORPEDO TUBES: 11 ::::Do I have to get out the plans and color mark them all and post it to put an END to this?Capt Christopher Donovan 10:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC) :::Yes you do because I have the same drawings and my count shows the one large array on the saucer dorsal plus SIX smaller ones. Watch the opening shot of the Enterprise in Nemesis as the camera pans over the saucer and pay attention. The torpedo launcher that was shown in some drawings at the bow is in fact NOT THERE, and the number of phaser arrays can clearly be counted as well. ::: Look inboard on your illistration from phasers #2 and #3. There are 2 more arrays there (one on each side of the main shuttle bay control structure), and they are present on every model of of the ship. Again, watch the opening shot of the ship in Nemesis. The torpedo launcher on the bow in those drawings IS NOT on the ship in the movie. ::: Look at this shot of the bow. No launcher is seen there, just windows. ::: Look at the area I indicated above. There are 2 more phaser arrays that you have failed to note on your drawing. This is cannon fact that there are 16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo tubes on the ship. Modelshipbuilder ::::OK, I went back, looked at the plans, and looked at a couple of screencaps. I'm big enough to admit when I f*ck up...and it looks like I did. The plans don't "call out" those two small strips with the parenthesis marks like the others are done. On that basis, I am also willing to accept your count on the torpedo tubes, and withdraw my objections and will do some count fixing to match. (Oh, and I took out the link to the drawings as it is no longer needed).Capt Christopher Donovan 11:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC) ::::OK, all weapons counts fixed to conform to the count of 16 and 10...Capt Christopher Donovan 11:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC) :::Another peice of information I'll throw out here: I won't count this as canon, but I'm told by Mr. Long, who has worked very closly with the Digital Domain Artist that made the CG ship, and also with John Eaves, in order to make his 40 inch model kit (I count myself lucky to have been able to get one!!), He tells me that Mr. Eaves says that the twin tube torpedo launcher above the docking port on the top of the saucer is accualy a turreted launcher that can elevate up, and rotate 360 degrees around, and can fire in any direction around and above the ships dorsal plane. --Modelshipbuilder ::As the class summary previously suggested all torpedo launchers can fire both photon and quantum torpedoes, I have altered the torpedo launcher references to reflect two facts: the ventral saucer launcher has only ever been seen to fire quantum torpedoes, and all other launchers have only ever been seen to launch photon torpedoes. --Svetz Falhain 15:19, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Ready Room Location The ready room is on the -port- side, isn't it? That's how it was on TNG and in the Ahab scene of FC they shot the bridge discussion from the front of the bridge looking back at the turbolifts - then when Picard went to his room to sulk and get chewed out by what's-her-name, he went to the right side of the frame - that would be the port side of the ship. Did the article get it wrong or am I mistaken? :Seconded - I think Picard went port in INS, too Torlek 21:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC) :: In First Contact, Picard went into the observation lounge, not his ready room. And the ready room and observation lounge are on the -starboard- side of the bridge. --TheThirdWitness 23:04, 25 December 2008 (UTC) Excelsior-class replacement Just what did Sternbach mean when he said that the Sovereign was meant to replace the Excelsior? Granted that John Eaves said, "I wanted a sleek, very fast ship with favourite elements from all the starships that had gone before, especially Bill George's Excelsior" (Forgotten Trek), but the Excelsiors' mission profiles by the late 24th century were more or less undignifying (with the Akiras taking over as the main cruisers). Did he mean the role the Excelsiors played when the Ambassadors were the lead ship, or did he mean the scrap role the former currently play? Torlek 21:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC) :I think he means the role they played flying alongside the refit constutions. 00:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC) ::Um, what? --OuroborosCobra talk 03:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC) :::Where is this Sternbach information coming from, not to mention the whole "Akira taking over as the main cruisers"? The only similarities I believe were ever mentioned with regards to the Exc and Sov was from the "real world" design standpoint of being long and sleek vs. previous designs. --Alan 03:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Number of decks I know this is an old hat, but here are the relevant pieces of dialogue mentioning the number of decks: : :Daniels: "It's pretty bad sir. It looks like they control decks 26 up to 11." ::and :Lily: "How big is this ship?" :Picard: "There are 24 decks, almost 700 meters long." --Jörg 12:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC) :Yeah, but I think at this point we have a consensus (24 original config and 29 refit), and frankly I think a lot of people are just sick of this whole back and forth... :) Capt Christopher Donovan 20:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC) ::I think the 24 (original) 29 (refit) is a perfect explanation. One would wonder why the original design had all that empty space, but oh well, not our problem ;) --OuroborosCobra talk 01:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :It's ENTIRELY speculation, so I won't be adding it to the article, but I suspect that the VOLUME of the ship changed little. The Galaxy class had a percentage of internal volume left "unfinished" as room for future expansion/upgrades, so did the Defiant class (that's where they wound up putting the shuttlebay). Personally, I subscribe to the theory that originally they had 24 FINISHED decks, and were upgraded to 29 finished decks after the war.Capt Christopher Donovan 01:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC) ::Sudden curious idea. This would not change the contents of the article, but do we have an MSD of the Enterprise-E from "First Contact", and another one from "Nemesis"? I would be interested in comparing the two, to see if there are any differences, or changes in deck count. If there aren't, maybe we should make a note in the background about the MSD's being wrong (I for one would rather go with character dialogue than MSDs). --OuroborosCobra talk 01:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :::i counted 24 decks on the nemesis MSD, but i'm fairly certain it's a reuse of the one seen in first contact. let's not forget that the problem is compounded by the fact that when riker and worf go to deck 29, there are very clearly MANY more levels below as when the viceroy falls down the turboshaft. Deevolution 01:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC) ::::Deevolution's right on two counts – there are still only 24 decks visible on the MSD image, and it is a re-use of the image from First Contact. However, although Riker and Worf were initially going to meet the Remans on Deck 29, the Remans apparently moved up through the decks pretty fast, forcing the battle to take place on Deck 9, because that's what the signs in the corridor says. --From Andoria with Love 02:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :::::If the fight occured on Deck 9, that answers some questions in regards to the Jeffries Tube and the mysterious shaft (Computer core?). However, what probable reason could there be for the extra 5 decks? Although the unfinished deck idea is a good one, 5 decks is quite substantial. - Enzo Aquarius 02:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :::shran is right! the signage in that scene clearly indicates deck 9. considering that and the MSD supporting 24 decks (as well as showing a vertical turboshaft and computer core alongside one another on deck 9), isn't it safe to conclude that worf simply mispoke? that he simply said deck 29 when he meant deck 9? all the visual evidence supports the simple fact that 29 was a mistake. Deevolution 02:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :::::I have no problem with accepting Worf's comment as a mistake (and for all we know it is). This could solve many problems, especially any further deck discussions for the Sovereign. - Enzo Aquarius 02:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC) ::::Actually, it was Data who first said the ship had "lost ventral shielding on Deck 29", after which Worf reported that the Remans had boarded on Deck 29. While it is possible for Worf to make such a mistake, it's not so for Data. --From Andoria with Love 02:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC) ::I think we should gowith my idea of adding a background note about the innacurate MSD. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :Someone with better eyes than mine will have to double check, but could it be deck '1'9 that they meet on? Either way, it would take a few minutes to organize and move out a security team, so it's no big deal to say the Reman strike team was no longer on Deck 29, IMO...Capt Christopher Donovan 03:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC) ::::I've already checked, the labels (including one on the turbolift) begin with "09", indicating the 9th deck. There is one moment you can see it clear as day – on a door which the Viceroy stands next to before walking to the Jefferies tube and jumping in. --From Andoria with Love 03:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC) :::::: Counting the the levels of windows on the Nemesis version of the ship reveals the same number that the ship had in FC, and that there are only 24 decks. If the Nemesis refit included 5 more decks, then these decks must be in the form of half decks being inserted inbetween existing decks in certain parts of the ship, and not run clear across the beam and to the outer hull where they would effect the level of windows on the ship. Perhaps these half decks were inserted as part of the 5 new torpedo launchers and act as torpedo storage magazine areas???????Modelshipbuilder :::::: I have added to the backround area the details of what was changed on the Soveriegn Class as far as her physical shape is concerned between the 3 movies that she has appeared in.Modelshipbuilder4:10am EST January 29th, 2007 : Whilst all of the above is an intriguing read, may I suggest the following simple explanation - the writers made an error that no-one else corrected? The MSD shows 24 decks and Picard states the Enterprise-E as having 24 decks in First Contact. Visual matching of decks suggests 24 as described above. The argument about unfinished/mission adaptable decks seems flawed: we know the Galaxy-class had unfinished decks but across the 7 seasons and one film there was only ever as many as 42 decks... so why wouldn't unfinished decks have been assigned numbers on a Sovereign-class? Furthermore, whilst there are clearly structural changes to the Sovereign-class between Insurrection and Nemesis, the changes seem insufficient to support a whole extra 5 decks. Given that there is conflict even in the same film (Daniels saying "decks 26 up to 11" and Picard stating "24 decks" to Lily Sloane), this seems to fit in along with instances such as in Star Trek V with the absurb turbolift sequence showing 78 decks. Whilst an argument about canon facts could surely insue here, I feel consideration should be given to just acknowledging this as an error. Thoughts? --Svetz Falhain 12:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Ship type I have seen this ship class listed as a Heavy Cruser type, now I see it listed as Exploror, why the change? Janewayfan4497 02:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC) Phasers From this particular scene from Nemesis, I think we can see that the Sovereign has fallen back on the older independant fire control system for it's phasers, rather than the centralized tactical station on the Galaxy and other starships. This is actually more natural for a warship.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 16:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) :How does that picture demonstrate that? --GO RED SOX 19:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC) ::Indeed, there are at least two examples of the Galaxy class Enterprise doing the same thing: "Best of Both Worlds" and "Yesterday's Enterprise" and we know THAT ship had a unified tactical command and control.Capt Christopher Donovan 22:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Well, should we put it in the article?--The All-knowing Sith'ari 16:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC) :Put what in the article? We don't know anything. --GO RED SOX 22:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC) :::Isn't that a part from when Worf was ordered to fire the phasers randomly? Who's to say that the phasers are not capable of firing bursts into different directions, as it is an array going nearly the entire saucer. Not to mention, it's possible Worf entered into the computer to fire randomply, thus the computer did it all automatically. In short, this picture alone, does not tell me that there is a "independent fire control" system. It is the 24th century after all...--Terran Officer 05:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC) I don't know about random, but Picard ordered a full phaser spread, and all Worf did was press a button, so you may have a point about the computer.--The All-knowing Sith'ari 17:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Sovereign Project Has this name been used officially? I've never heard of it. Dave 13:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC) :It wasn't. --31dot 12:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC) :: Sovereign Class is written on the Bridge MSD. Tenouharuka ::: ...and the dedication plaque, but what he's asking is if the name "Sovereign Project" has ever been used? --Alan 15:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC) Removed Saying the class was influenced by the Borg is speculative. Also, stating that there was a combination of elements of classes is an opinion or speculative. Removing and posting below: * "The Sovereign Project was one of the new defensive technologies initially intended for use against the Borg threat. * "''Heavily armed, the design philosophy for the ''Sovereign-class was shaped by the discovery of the Borg. The Sovereign Project attempted to push the envelope as far as possible when it came to computer power, shields, armament, and systems capabilities. The Sovereign-class starship combined the creature comforts associated with the larger vessels with the tactical power of the new . --31dot 12:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC) More Removed: *''Comments made by Rick Sternbach on the TrekBBS give the Sovereign-class a designation of Heavy Cruiser, a mass of 3,205,000 metric tons, an apparent crew complement of 855, and a maximum cruising speed of warp 9.9. He also stated that it was the intent that the Sovereign-class be the replacement for the aging starship. *''According to some production memos, the Enterprise-E was originally named the USS Honorius, but after the Enterprise-D was destroyed, the Honorius was renamed Enterprise in a similar fashion to the Enterprise-A, which was, according to Gene Roddenberry, supposed to have been renamed from the USS Yorktown. Certainly the first can be cited if it came from a web forum..so why hasnt no one cited it? second one is vague, and needs some cites too. --Alan 01:21, 19 March 2009 (UTC) Deck layout I just removed some wild speculation, where someone had assumed that the ship has 29 decks and decided to extrapolate where the never-mentioned or shown decks 25 or 27 would go. The canon section should stick to verbal and visual references, including the MSD layout since it could be seen clearly on multiple occasions. As for decks 26 and 29, they are inconsistent with the MSD and Picard's dialogue reference to 24 decks, so we simply don't have a canonical answer for them. They shouldn't be assigned any interior or exterior features based solely on extrapolation. – NotOfTheBody 17:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)